No synchro in first gear

npca-bigpupss · Post by **npca-bigpupss** » Tue Sep 24, 2002 3:41 pm

Thanks, Hoss! And QUICK response too!!! I just realized that I have only checked this at the Slave Cylinder end-not at the pedal arm end of everything. My old IH's (thos are my first love, and what got me started tinkering on cars in the first palce!) had an adjustment at both ends, so maybe this does too. If I can turn out the rod going into the MC, this may buy me further "push-out" onthe slave cylnder rod as well, which might do the trick. I will get back to you guys if this helps, as someone else may need to know this sometime. BTW, mine is a '67 or '68-reg'ed as a '68, but someone said my lights looked more like '67's I think. Anyway, in looking at the brake and clutch systems, mine appear to be original as well. I can't imagine someone would go to the trouble to exchange these and put that little thimble of a reservoir on there!!! And I have already bled the line well, with no signs of any leaks, so I think the line is intact and free of air. So, did Nissan offer a regular manual as well as a hydraulic assist clutch? Or has mine been changed or altered at some point? Thanks! Michael

npca-grant · Post by **npca-grant** » Tue Sep 24, 2002 4:24 pm

Hey bigpupss! Hmmm, not sure Im following you. So Ill start off with the DUH stuff, you said: >My slave cylinder rod was adjusted with the nut only about half-way >out of its distance for adjustment. However, it goes completely >around the bolt, so when I unscrew it, it doesn't change the length >of the "rod" but simply moves around it. I read this and I get the impression that you are saying that when you try to adj the nut on the rod... the nut and the rod both turn, thus not moving the nut *along* the rod (ie offset). Ill assume this is the case, which I doubt because it is a big DUH . So forgive me if this seem insulting. Thing is the slave cylinder is a simple device, just a piston that moves out. The rod with the nut on it sits in/on the top of the piston, thus when the piston moves out, the rod moves with it. But there is nothing holding the rod to the piston, so, it will just spin when/if you put a wrench on the nut and try and turn in. Usally, somwhere alone the rod they put a flat spot (ie not round rod) so you can put a cressent wrench on it to hold the rod while you now turn the nut with another wrench. Now you should be able to adj the nut relitive to the rod, ie the offset. Oh, and there is usally a spring that connects to the through out lever to pull in back in, thus pushing the rod and piston back in when you take your foot of the peddle. So, with that in mind, what I use to do on my old 240Z is adj the nut all the way out to take up all the slack. Then from there you just adj it one way or the other to get the right about of through. As the cluch wears down, you will have to get in there and take out more slack. If I remember right, I took out all the slack, then go a bit more to get it good and tight. That usally gives you the right adj... but it has been a long time, and a PATROL is not a Z As for clutch linkage vs hydrolic with master and slave cylinders. Mine is a 1967, it has linkage. I belive it was 1968 that they switched to hydrolic and switch the front blinkers.. but I thougth the blinkers were 1969? Not 100% on that. So, it sounds like you defintally have a 68+, or some mid year bastard change Alot of that went on back then with all the safty and smog changes comming out mid year and crap! Grant

npca-bigpupss · Post by **npca-bigpupss** » Tue Sep 24, 2002 7:15 pm

Grant-Thanks for taking the time to even TRY to figure out what the heck I am saying!!!Now, I will try to explain it a little bit better:The nut on the rod that goes into the slave cylinder boot DOES indeed, turn (If I secure the rod with a pair of vise grips-this one has no machined head for a wrench to hold on), and does move up and down the rod. So I am not turning it while it is resting in the slave cylinder and turning the whole rod, but am only turning the nut. So, this nut moves back and forth-that is ALL it does-that is the point I am trying to make. Where the rod sticks up against the throw out bearing lever, it is concave on the end, to make the rod stay in place. Then there is a "yoke" that is attached to the lever (of the throw out bearing) that this "nut" that rides on the rod is JUST barely small enough to fit inside at this point. SO0-because the nut is small enough to fit inside, and it only screws right off the end of the rod, it NEVER affects any kind of adjustment. So my questions is/has been/was, "Should this nut actually butt up against this little yoke, in which case it WOULD affect the point at which the movement of the piston/rod from the cylinder moved the lever for the throw-out bearing?" Yes, long question with a free-satnding sentence as a phrase in it, but it is still a question!!! Ultimately, if I clamped this little "yoke" so that it was SLIGHTLY tighter, the nut would hit it, it would make the yoke move, which would make the throw-out bearing lever move much, which would disengage the clutch disc, and allow for spearation of the disc and flywheel. However, if this IS how it was designed, the yoke is very small and flimsy (for the amount of pressure I would imagine it is taking), and I can understand why it bent out of shape, but cannot imagine this is not a common problem with these.Now, does this make it more understandable to anyone? And if so, anyone have an answer?Thanks!Michael_________________________________________________________________MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx

npca-grant · Post by **npca-grant** » Wed Sep 25, 2002 11:25 pm

Hey bigpupss (Michael) I made a copy of the service manual and posted it in the pictures section page by page. Here is a link to the clutch adj section http://groups.msn.com/NissanPatrolClubA ... hotoID=996 http://groups.msn.com/NissanPatrolClubA ... hotoID=997 Oh, wait, this may not work for you, because I think this is for the linkage type... This service manual was dated 66, pretty old, Tell you what, I bought a newer service manual and it does have the newer hydrolic one in it, with a real good picture of it all. Prob is I lent my scanner out to my sister to do some work. So it will take me awhile b4 I can get it to you. But, if you cant wait I HIGHLY RECOMEND YOU BUY THIS NEW SERVICE MANUAL LIKE I DID. Not from ebay for hundreds of dollors but from here: http://www.books4cars.com/3way/result1. ... offset=150 It is in the "NISSAN FACTORY ORGINAL MANUALS" section near the bottom of the page. It is called: "G60 Nissan Patrol service manual" It is $69.95 but it is worth it for anyone doing their own work! Oh and it is dated 1977, so it covers every change in the PATROL. Basically it is a newer version of the one I put in the pictures section, alot of the same info, but just newer. Grant

npca-bigpupss · Post by **npca-bigpupss** » Thu Sep 26, 2002 10:17 am

Grant-Thanks for the link and the advice on the manual. I DO always get the manual-once I am sure it is worth it! I JUST finished school (Chiropractic), so money has been quite tight, and I KIND of have to make sure I can afford to get this thing going before even spending the $70.00 on the manual. I know it has what sounds like a good engine, andf that the front axle and T-case work, but beyond that, I know almost nothing about it. In general, I trust most things that don't normally break, but because it is missing the rear pinion shaft and gear, I have to assume those blew up at some point. I would really like to tinker enough to make sure that I knew that the clutch was either good or not good before making this next "investment." Not to mention that, having looked at it, I have never see a slave cylinder rod/piston with an adjusting screw that adjusts nothing, nor have I seen a mounting system that would bend so easily in an area that would take so much pressure anyway, so I am just REALLY curious as to the design and why it is set up the way it is.Anyway, I do GREATLY appreciate your trouble and help, but am hoping someone that may have done this will eventually speak up with some knowledge/advice. What, am I the only person on here with a post-'68 that has ever tried to adjust their clutch? Or is the hydraulic clutch system on these really THAT rare?Regardless, thanks to everyone for their advice and help so far!!!BTW-there is no apparent adjusting mechanism at the pedal arm, as I was hoping!!!And the other bad news is that I may be about eight hours away from getting another IH Scout that I really like, which could spell curtains for the Patrol!!! I MAY keep both, but the Scout I would be getting is an old school model-'61 body (Scout 80) on a '68 frame (Scout 800), and these have a considerably shorter wheelbase than the more well-known/popular Scout II's. Thus, it would not be a good idea to use the Scout to tow the Patrol cross-country, and I am about to move cross-country! The great thing about this Scout is that it has the earlier body style (shorter, fold-down windshield), with the advantages of the slightly later frame and drivetrain (V-8 and stronger axles), which the ealiest ones didn't have. The perfect combination that I have always wanted. However, it is a tough conversion, as the inner fenders on the older body are smaller and the under-hood area is shorter, so the V-8's do not easily fit into this area. Thus, to find one with the conversion already done is almost ideal-saves a LOT of time and work and money and headaches!!!Still LOVE the Patrol, though-trying to figure a way to keep both!Thanks!Michael_________________________________________________________________Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com

npca-fud · Post by **npca-fud** » Fri Sep 27, 2002 2:18 am

like I said to begin with....double clutching worked for me to help with no syncro in first gear....obviously if it grinds at a stop your clutch is in need of help....I own a 67' so it had rods....personally I like the rods as it gave the truck an "old time" feel but I have no experience with the 68' or later clutch set up.....just know what I like and what worked for me.

npca-superk · Post by **npca-superk** » Fri Sep 27, 2002 5:34 pm

I may be coming in at the tail end of this but here goes. There is no synchro in first gear. That said, the only way to shift into first while moving is to match the counter shaft speed with its mating first gear speed inside the tranny. This can only be done with your foot OFF of the clutch pedal. Am I nuts? No. First gear is a spur gear that is slid into its mate on the counter shaft by moving the shift lever. Since first gear is driven by the tranny output shaft, it is turning if the vehicle is moving. The counter shaft is geared to the tranny input shaft and is turning whenever the clutch pedal is out (assuming of course that the engine is running). If the vehicle is moving, first gear is turning. If the clutch pedal is in for a second or two, the counter shaft is stationary. Since you can't engage a stationary gear with a spinning gear, you have to get the gears turning at the same speed. Hence you have to let out the clutch. Only then can you shift into first while moving (unless your'e moving so slowly that the engine rpms won't go that low). Let me hasten to add, it's one of the fastest ways to drop a tranny. Read: destroy. I can be done, but I DO NOT recommend it. It's all by guess and by golly and experience. You can shift into second and third this way too but you have to match the gear speeds there as well. I would never do this now, but as a teenager...well, you know. Also, if at a stop you get grinding, are you sitting in neutral with the clutch out? If so, you may have to wait a few seconds for the clutch and countershaft to stop turning before engaging first. Thats a lot of mass spinning and slamming it into first the instant you put in the clutch will cause grinding. If after a few seconds you still get grinding your linkage may need adjusting or something else is wrong as others have pointed out. Its been about 25 years since I rebuilt my Patrol tranny, but if I remember correctly its a pretty beefy deal. The weak link is the front counter shaft bearing. Its a small roller bearing that takes all the pressure in first gear. It was this bearings failure that led to rebuilding, and no, it wasn't because I was shifting with no clutch. Just my 2 cents. superk

npca-grant · Post by **npca-grant** » Fri Sep 27, 2002 9:13 pm

>>like I said to begin with.... Huh? Yet this is your fist reply to this thread? >>double clutching worked for me to help with no syncro in first gear.... Let me see if I understand... You use double clutching to help with no syncro in 1st gear... If one was to shift down to 1st from 2nd when comming to a stop I could see that might come into play... But I cant think of any car I have ever owned that I would take to 1st when comming to a stop. I allways stay in 2nd and only goto 1st after I have come to a stop. Am I missing something here? >>obviously if it grinds at a stop your clutch is in need of help.... Like I said before, I have all new clutch parts. True, new does not garintee no problems. But that is not the case in this case. >>I own a 67' so it had rods.... Same here. >>personally I like the rods as it gave the truck an "old time" feel >>but I have no experience with the 68' or later clutch set up..... >>just know what I like and what worked for me. Copy. Grant

npca-grant · Post by **npca-grant** » Fri Sep 27, 2002 9:21 pm

>>Also, if at a stop you get grinding, are you sitting in neutral with the clutch out? >>If so, you may have to wait a few seconds for the clutch and countershaft to >>stop turning before engaging first. Thats a lot of mass spinning and slamming >>it into first the instant you put in the clutch will cause grinding. If after a few >>seconds you still get grinding your linkage may need adjusting or something >>else is wrong as others have pointed out. Thanks for the info superk! Im begging to think my pilot shaft is binding up with the engine main shaft due to the bone head mech that felt the need to make a brass busing instead of spending $7.00 to buy one from NISSAN. So, this weekend Im going to give the cluthc adj a try, if no go, Ill have to plan a tranny drop to replace that $7.00 brass bushing. Dam... Im just going to stop going to mech, I end up re-doing thier work 9 out of 10 times, and Ill save the drain of talking to them with their "Im the only one that knows anything" attitudes. You would think that for $700.00 to put a motor in a PATROL that the bone head could spend $7.00 on the correct brass busing!!!!! Next time Im in N.M. I going to drive by and kick that sob in the ass! Grant

npca-fud · Post by **npca-fud** » Sat Sep 28, 2002 1:04 am

"double clutch it....used to work for me" no that was my first reply to this thread...and yes I double clutch coming to a stop or at a stop, reverse too. I started double clutching 'cause the guy who sold me the truck said to do it, he could shift it perfectly and on my test drive I was grinding badly. First gear is cracked in my tranny so i had the clutch rods fabricated and replaced them...learned how to double clutch my Patrol like a champ and it worked for me. Never left me stranded and if I could have found tranny parts back then I would have rebuilt it along with new clutch parts. I did find some tranny parts from NISSAN but not nearly enuff for rebuild. The double clutching goes along with what was said earlier with matching the counter shaft speed....double clutching helped with this for me. After driving my Patrol this way for several years I was able to shift without using the clutch, simply because I knew my truck very well...although I must admit this was only done a few times to see if it could be done, just like the crank start....hehe almost broke my hand on that one.