Hi all,
Here all over the forum, and in the service manual it says that stock distributor timing is 10deg BTDC
But I came across this little nugget several pages in to the manual... and then confusion set in...
i only have one single tick mark on my crank pulley that i can see - i assume this is the factory 10deg BTDC mark ?
I took out my adj timing light, and once the engine was warmed up and idle was hovering at 500rpm, i took a look at my timing - it was at around 2deg
(the crank pulley tick mark was rotated cw away from the block pointer)
Out of curiosity, I loosened the dist plate and went about advancing the dist by turning it cw, this started moving the crank pulley tick mark ccw back towards the block pointer.
The max timing I can get is about 7deg before the two hardline vacuum lines going to the waterproof dist bind up against the block.
(one off the dashpot diaphragm, the other off the dist housing)
Am I doing something wrong ?
Timing Question
-
- Administrator
- Posts: 2460
- Joined: Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:49 pm
- Location: Arizona
- Location: Arizona
- Has thanked: 800 times
- Been thanked: 1269 times
- Contact:
Re: Timing Question
Hmmmmm ... there should be four timing marks on the crank pulley (which indicate 0, 5, 10, 15 degrees )... 
If you can't advance your distributor CW enough to set it on the 2nd mark (2nd down from the top, that is..
) then the number one spark plug wire orientation on your distributor rotor might be off
so, here's how I would re-align it (going to be tough without visuals, but I'll give it a shot
)
1) with the engine off, remove the number one spark plug , and disconnect the coil center wire from both the coil and the distributor, and place it aside.
2) have someone bump the starter while you keep a finger over the number one spark plug hole- bump the starter slowly, and keep bumping it until you feel pressure against your finger.
3) check you timing marks, and make sure they are in the vicinity of the pointer (it does not have to be lined up exactly on any of the marks, you just want them to be close to the pointer)
4) pop off your distributor cap and see which spark plug wire the rotor is pointing towards. Double check that this wire leads to the number one cylinder (which it should).
5) loosen the distributor clamp and pivot the distributor COUNTERCLOCKWISE enough so that the rotor would now be pointing to the next spark plug wire on the cap (which should be for the number 4 cylinder).
6) pop each spark plug wire off, and rotate them each one hole CLOCKWISE - so now the rotor is again pointing at the number one spark plug wire, but the vaccum advance has been re-indexed downward about 60 degrees
7) Hook the coil back up, hook up your timing light, fire the engine up (your might need to tweak the distributor back and forth a little bit to get it to fire and idle), and then dial in the timing to the correct 10 degrees initial advance.
8) tighten the distributor clamp, check the timing one last time to make sure it is still at 10 degrees, and go enjoy a cold cerveza....
If you can't advance your distributor CW enough to set it on the 2nd mark (2nd down from the top, that is..
) then the number one spark plug wire orientation on your distributor rotor might be off so, here's how I would re-align it (going to be tough without visuals, but I'll give it a shot
)1) with the engine off, remove the number one spark plug , and disconnect the coil center wire from both the coil and the distributor, and place it aside.
2) have someone bump the starter while you keep a finger over the number one spark plug hole- bump the starter slowly, and keep bumping it until you feel pressure against your finger.
3) check you timing marks, and make sure they are in the vicinity of the pointer (it does not have to be lined up exactly on any of the marks, you just want them to be close to the pointer)
4) pop off your distributor cap and see which spark plug wire the rotor is pointing towards. Double check that this wire leads to the number one cylinder (which it should).
5) loosen the distributor clamp and pivot the distributor COUNTERCLOCKWISE enough so that the rotor would now be pointing to the next spark plug wire on the cap (which should be for the number 4 cylinder).
6) pop each spark plug wire off, and rotate them each one hole CLOCKWISE - so now the rotor is again pointing at the number one spark plug wire, but the vaccum advance has been re-indexed downward about 60 degrees
7) Hook the coil back up, hook up your timing light, fire the engine up (your might need to tweak the distributor back and forth a little bit to get it to fire and idle), and then dial in the timing to the correct 10 degrees initial advance.
8) tighten the distributor clamp, check the timing one last time to make sure it is still at 10 degrees, and go enjoy a cold cerveza....
L-R:
White 65 Hardtop L60-3-00617 (undergoing restoration)
Red 65 hardtop 4L60-002565 (scrapped for parts)
66 Hardtop "El-Bondo Patrol", L60-00511 (Restored, then sold June2020)
Blue 67 Hardtop (sold March1997)
Green 62 Softtop L60-2-00504 (undergoing restoration)
-
- Administrator
- Posts: 7814
- Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:42 am
- Location: Temecula, CA
- Has thanked: 7688 times
- Been thanked: 2476 times
- Contact:
Re: Timing Question
It is more likely that the distributor drive gear is one tooth off. Quite possible, since I know the history of that distributor and drive gear. It would be easier to rotate the gear one tooth.
The setting should be 10 BTDC. I'm not sure why the 2 degree reference is in the manual. It's not the first misprint I've seen.
The setting should be 10 BTDC. I'm not sure why the 2 degree reference is in the manual. It's not the first misprint I've seen.
Beyond any hope for intervention
-
- Patrol Fanatic!
- Posts: 3000
- Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 11:28 am
- Location: Lutherville, MD
- Location: Lutherville, MD
- Has thanked: 6010 times
- Been thanked: 1600 times
Re: Timing Question
Eric, you have found a precious part of information, that for many, including me, has never surfaced. Congratulations 
I decided to take a look in my Owner's Manual or should I say "Manual de Instrucciones del Dueño Serie del Modelo 60", since it's in Spanish
. According to the instructions, there's only one mark that when lined with the pointer corresponds to 2 degree BTDC. This is great. By the way, my Patrol does have the 4 marks that Robert mentioned, with the first one to arrive being 15°BTDC, 10°, 5° and 0 or TDC, so the instructions where remnant of the original ones issued.
The copy of the Owner's Manual that is in the Patrolabilia section, mentions only one mark, but this time is 10°. Go figure!
So now, you have to take some pictures for us. You have a one of a kind, and for me, probably everything in your distributor is correct.
The next thing will be to measure the diameter of the pulley, at the outer edge where the mark is, so you can figure out where to put the missing marks, or at least the 10°BTDC one.
I can probably measure mine and give you the info, but probably will have to wait until Saturday. Probably the pulley diameter has not changed over the years, and somebody here might have an engine outside of the chassis for a correct measurement.
Also, you probably want to check the exact location of the TDC to actually confirm if the sole mark you have is at 2 or at 10 degrees.
I decided to take a look in my Owner's Manual or should I say "Manual de Instrucciones del Dueño Serie del Modelo 60", since it's in Spanish
. According to the instructions, there's only one mark that when lined with the pointer corresponds to 2 degree BTDC. This is great. By the way, my Patrol does have the 4 marks that Robert mentioned, with the first one to arrive being 15°BTDC, 10°, 5° and 0 or TDC, so the instructions where remnant of the original ones issued.The copy of the Owner's Manual that is in the Patrolabilia section, mentions only one mark, but this time is 10°. Go figure!
So now, you have to take some pictures for us. You have a one of a kind, and for me, probably everything in your distributor is correct.
The next thing will be to measure the diameter of the pulley, at the outer edge where the mark is, so you can figure out where to put the missing marks, or at least the 10°BTDC one.
I can probably measure mine and give you the info, but probably will have to wait until Saturday. Probably the pulley diameter has not changed over the years, and somebody here might have an engine outside of the chassis for a correct measurement.
Also, you probably want to check the exact location of the TDC to actually confirm if the sole mark you have is at 2 or at 10 degrees.
Owner of the same Patrol since 1967
-
- Administrator
- Posts: 7814
- Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2012 10:42 am
- Location: Temecula, CA
- Has thanked: 7688 times
- Been thanked: 2476 times
- Contact:
Re: Timing Question
I love it when Esteban gets excited. 
Eric will have a dual pulley. This was added to accommodate the A/C compressor. Depending on how this modification was made, he may or may not have the original crank pulley. Usually they just bolt another pulley on to the existing crank pulley, but maybe they didn't in this case.
Eric will have a dual pulley. This was added to accommodate the A/C compressor. Depending on how this modification was made, he may or may not have the original crank pulley. Usually they just bolt another pulley on to the existing crank pulley, but maybe they didn't in this case.
Beyond any hope for intervention
-
- You know you own a Patrol when…
- Posts: 120
- Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:09 am
- Location: Los Angeles
- Has thanked: 42 times
- Been thanked: 73 times
- Contact:
Re: Timing Question
Hi all,
I was playing around with this last night again.
So I do have 4 tick marks on the pulley - the three other ones were so faint / rusty / dirty that I didn't actually see them until I had the front end removed and had a chance to get in there and clean them up.
I removed the distributor, marked the drive gear's original position, then pulled it up and tried to turn it one tooth CCW.
I noticed that it didn't seat all the way down.
I tried two teeth CCW and same thing: it didn't seat all the way down.
I kept playing with it (CW and CCW), and I also noticed that it only seats all the way down in its original position or 180deg turned around.
Is it keyed somehow?
I set it back to its original position, re-assembled everything, started the engine, had it idle at 500rpm
With the timing light, I can now see the 4 tick marks on the crank pulley.
The tick mark that is most visible is the one that is the most CCW of the bunch - I assume this is 0deg BTDC - correct ?
So 15deg BTDC is the most CW of the bunch
(Just to be crystal clear, if the 0 BTDC tick mark is lined up with the timing cover pointer, then 15 BTDC is on the driver side of the engine, right?)
Rotating the dist as far CW as it will go, moves the crank pulley at idle to between the second and third tick marks - roughly 7.5deg BTDC, right?
Out of curiosity I turned it off, pull the distributor, and tried moving the drive gear one tooth again...
Same thing as before: it only seats all the way down in its original position or 180deg turned around. In all the other positions it won't go all the way down - it ends up being about 1/4" higher than it should be...
Thoughts ?
I was playing around with this last night again.
So I do have 4 tick marks on the pulley - the three other ones were so faint / rusty / dirty that I didn't actually see them until I had the front end removed and had a chance to get in there and clean them up.
I removed the distributor, marked the drive gear's original position, then pulled it up and tried to turn it one tooth CCW.
I noticed that it didn't seat all the way down.
I tried two teeth CCW and same thing: it didn't seat all the way down.
I kept playing with it (CW and CCW), and I also noticed that it only seats all the way down in its original position or 180deg turned around.
Is it keyed somehow?
I set it back to its original position, re-assembled everything, started the engine, had it idle at 500rpm
With the timing light, I can now see the 4 tick marks on the crank pulley.
The tick mark that is most visible is the one that is the most CCW of the bunch - I assume this is 0deg BTDC - correct ?
So 15deg BTDC is the most CW of the bunch
(Just to be crystal clear, if the 0 BTDC tick mark is lined up with the timing cover pointer, then 15 BTDC is on the driver side of the engine, right?)
Rotating the dist as far CW as it will go, moves the crank pulley at idle to between the second and third tick marks - roughly 7.5deg BTDC, right?
Out of curiosity I turned it off, pull the distributor, and tried moving the drive gear one tooth again...
Same thing as before: it only seats all the way down in its original position or 180deg turned around. In all the other positions it won't go all the way down - it ends up being about 1/4" higher than it should be...
Thoughts ?
-
- I love driving my Patrol!
- Posts: 931
- Joined: Thu Oct 24, 2013 11:23 am
- Location: Iola, Tx
- Location: Iola, Tx
- Has thanked: 97 times
- Been thanked: 568 times
- Contact:
Re: Timing Question
Eric,
You have to remove the base that the Distributor bolts to and adjust the gear one tooth at that point. I found this pic that might help it all make sense.
You have to remove the base that the Distributor bolts to and adjust the gear one tooth at that point. I found this pic that might help it all make sense.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Justin
-
- Administrator
- Posts: 1225
- Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 12:45 am
- Location: Roseville, California
- Has thanked: 646 times
- Been thanked: 1149 times
- Contact:
Re: Timing Question
Don't forget the points. I had issues with the timing when we first started the engine -- I couldn't get it right. The range of movement was either too far to one side or after moving the distributor shaft a tooth, too far the other -- Turns out that it the points weren't adjusted correctly.
The points drive the precise timing -- the moment the pads separate is what triggers the spark. If the points aren't set up correctly, like mine wasn't, it messes with the overall timing. If you have too much gap, then they will open later on the distributor lobe which means later in the cycle (e.g. less advance before TDC). If they is too little gap, then they will open earlier on the lobe and will cause the timing to advance (more advance before TDC).
Just my two cents...
John
The points drive the precise timing -- the moment the pads separate is what triggers the spark. If the points aren't set up correctly, like mine wasn't, it messes with the overall timing. If you have too much gap, then they will open later on the distributor lobe which means later in the cycle (e.g. less advance before TDC). If they is too little gap, then they will open earlier on the lobe and will cause the timing to advance (more advance before TDC).
Just my two cents...
John