1967 Family Patrol Project

[faux40]

Engine number two --

We were invited to the machine shop yesterday so the kids could watch Dave, our machinist, assemble some of our second Patrol engine. Everyone enjoyed it, but Barritt was inspired. She asked questions and really followed along with the project. Dave explained what the stuff that Barritt called raspberry goo was for as he squirted it on the bearings (assembly lube), and why he put little rubber socks on the rod bolts before sliding them in. I was a very proud dad when Jay explained TO Dave what the torque wrench was for! I'm not so sure any of the kids really understood ring gap alignment and how that affects blow-by, but they did get why he was using the ring compressor. I just have to say it again, that is an awesome shop!

The shop


Here's Dave with the three kids beside our little P engine


Installing pistons -- Dave had Barritt check the alignment to make sure it was correct!


Barritt and Jay discuss how the oil pump works by "squishing" the oil from one side to the other


We supplied pizza and soda for the shop -- they provided a great experience for the kids. I think we got the better end of that exchange!

-----

Now, on another note -- I dragged along a fuel pump to the shop to do a little test fitting. I discovered that it would be nearly impossible to install the fuel pump wrong. You can't get it over the cam, beside the lobe, nothing... except for installing it upside-down. Even then, you'd probably figure it out as the pump arm ends up and inch and a half away from the cam!

When the pump is about 1/4" away from the block -- like this...


The pump arm just starts to press on the cam (on the low side of the eccentric) -- Like this...


I'm beginning to wonder if my lovely rebuilt pump is actually not for this engine. It just doesn't work: my theory that it's fully compressed upon bolting up may be wrong -- I talked to Mike at Then & Now automotive today, he said that if that were the case, the rod would probably be sticking out of the top of the housing! Apparently there's not that much free space in the pump.

I just want someone to explain that I've made a bonehead mistake and that it's easy to fix! Someone? Please? In the mean time, I thinking of hollowing out one of my other pumps, and making a dummy pump and then picking up an electric pump -- at least this way, I can move on to other exciting parts of the long punch list over the weekend!

Have a great day!

John

[faux40]

Alts, Gens, Coils, oh my!
I waited up late the other night to welcome you to Tulsa...Now I see some reasons
for the delay.
I wrote a bunch about Generators on Feb 6, 2014 in response GARYSCC's post on Manual starting a Patrol.
I regularly work on Gens on my own cars and Moto-Guzzi cycle, as well as on several old forktrucks and three antique radial-engined airplanes. The planes even have what are called "carbon-pile" voltage regulators...same as old Nissans!

Mild Bill

Did I say that I'm absolutely jealous yet? If I'd known about the three planes, the first test drive may have been to Tulsa! I got to sit in an N3N once -- My sister got to go for a ride! Do you get to fly any of the three radials?

John

[moore_rb]

When the pump is about 1/4" away from the block -- like this...


The pump arm just starts to press on the cam (on the low side of the eccentric) -- Like this...

That's how it should be - the spacer would normally fill that 1/4 inch gap (if you had one installed, like you should).

I'm beginning to wonder if my lovely rebuilt pump is actually not for this engine. It just doesn't work: my theory that it's fully compressed upon bolting up may be wrong --

The only way I can imagine that it would be fully compressed when bolted up would be if you are bolting it to the engine WITHOUT the spacer...

If the arms are the same length on all your pumps, and if they have the same amount of travel, then they should all be interchangeable...


On another note- Are you saying that the pump that T&N rebuilt does not pull ANY vacuum on the inlet side when you move either the primer or the main arm...? If that is the case, then the pump is not sealed properly and it should go back (but I can't imagine that they don't test it thoroughly before they shipped it back to you)

[Coyote Patrol]

It sounds to me like a check valve in the pump isnt seating. Do you get any suction on the inlet side of the pump while cranking the engine? If not, its the diaphragm, or the outlet check valve, if you do, its the inlet check valve. Maybe try and spray some starting fluid into the inlet of the pump and tap on it lightly with a screwdriver handle, if its the check valve this might free it up. Don't use wd40, or carb cleaner. These might damage the diaphragm.

[Esteban]

These pumps for the Patrol were fitted with two diaphragms along the years. One is longer than the other and are not interchangeable. But my guess is that T&N rebuids the same diaphragm with new rubber so the previous note shouldn't be the issue.

My only suggestion is, that the manual primer could be interfering with the normal operation of the rocker arm.

Do a manual test of the pump. Also, what about a leak in the inlet fuel line that's preventing a normal operation of the pump? Connect a length of hose to an outside fuel container and see if it actually pumps.

Good luck.

[faux40]

A whole bunch of things going on here... To start off, our Amazon order arrived and Barritt and I installed the new speedo cable (only five dollars... although it's up to $13 or so now) and the headlight dimmer.

Barritt prepping to connect the cable to the speedometer


Here's the part number -- it's actually a touch longer than the stock one and doesn't have the cool grommet for the firewall


Lookie -- We've gone nearly five miles!


Now it's time for the dimmer switch -- Barritt did the heavy lifting here too


Aside from the extend-o-tab, it's nearly identical to the stock one... assuming that was the original to start with! Anyway, there's something goofy going on with the lights still. We have low beams and off. Perhaps we mis-wired the switch. We'll save that for another day.



And, just in case you wanted the part number...


Next, Jay and I did some generator rebuilding... which was a fail. Still no joy. So then we did the mix-and-match on the generator parts. I think it started to work... but generating a negative voltage. Perhaps it's stuck on positive ground mode? Anyway, lots of work, not a lot of success ;-(

Jay's cleaning the armature


After all the generator frustrations, I caved... at least for awhile. This morning, I pulled the Delco alternator off the V8 in the soft top Patrol and the "customized" alternator bracket that was on the old, white '66 Patrol. I showed it some plasma and TIG love -- It isn't perfect, but close (the generator sits about 1/8" back and angled degree or two). Close enough to work anyway!

Think this is ugly? You should have seen what I had to cut off first!


Looks good with the generator attached


The bracket also looks good attached to the engine


Turns out that the position changed just enough to mess up the upper bracket alignment -- Used some home-brewed creativity to come up with a short term fix... it may be ugly, but it sure is weak!


Lookie, lookie! It's creating power! Quick question -- It hovers right around 14.5 volts. Sometimes in the low 14s, but occasionally higher. The highest I've seen is 14.55. Is that too high?


A quick side note about the Delco 10-SI alternator -- it appears that often the 3-wire version is actually a 1-wire unit. The extra terminals are there for backward compatibility purposes and for the idiot light functionality.

Anyway, tomorrow I'm getting back to fuel pump fest! Yay?

John

[moore_rb]

Lookie, lookie! It's creating power! Quick question -- It hovers right around 14.5 volts. Sometimes in the low 14s, but occasionally higher. The highest I've seen is 14.55. Is that too high?

Nope- That's perfect.

[faux40]

I did the double-spacer thing on the fuel pump this morning and it actually seems to be much better -- the manual pump actually feels like it's pumping. I cracked the fitting at the carb and indeed the fuel makes it there!

Not one, but two insulators! -- Now it seems happier.


However, despite the fuel flow, it just has no interest in starting -- acts like it has no fuel. I don't hear anything coming from the accelerator pump. I think the float is stuck shut. I checked the little filter in the banjo fitting at the carb attachment and it's clear. I guess I have a choice -- the Hitachi simply flows all the fuel directly to the engine in real-time while the Rochester is miserly and won't pass any along!

I pulled the carb off the '66 hard top thinking that I may try it, but it was too filthy -- had dirt clods building up on the butterfly. When I tried to remove it for cleaning, the little screws snapped. Okay, that derailed that idea. Next, I decided to open the Hitachi and see why the float won't ever stop the fuel flow... I've never opened up one of these, but that float just looks wrong. It imploded! Could this be a blocked vent and too much fuel pressure?

Notice that luxury, compact float?


Here's the view of the inside...


Since I'm currently dead in the water, I was thinking of drilling a tiny hole in it, pressurizing it to try and re-shape it and then soldering it shut... aside from an explosion from the residual gas, what's the worst that could happen? I'd like to get confirmation that this is not the normal shape first though.

In the mean time, I still have one more carb to try -- It's off the green '66 parts Patrol. Like the carb from my last attempt, maybe it's dirt clod free...

John

[moore_rb]

I have no experience with the Hitachi carbs, so I can't say whether that float is supposed to look like that, but I surely can't imagine that is normal.

[Coyote Patrol]

That float has seen better days. Fuel pressure wouldnt have done that, i think someone has been in there and was careless with this float. Im currious to see how this comes out when you are done.