Someone should do a 'How to' on the brake master

DIYs, FAQs and anything else that doesn't fit in another topic

Postby antiquecyles » Wed Nov 13, 2013 2:41 pm

I just called Whitepost in VA. They charge $ :think: 220 to re-sleeve, rebuild and make like new. Wheel cylinders are 80 each. Kinda pricey but it comes with a lifetime warranty which is nice... :think:
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Postby moore_rb » Wed Nov 13, 2013 2:52 pm

antiquecyles wrote:I just called Whitepost in VA. They charge $ :think: 220 to re-sleeve, rebuild and make like new. :



Kellogg Automotive in Az is going to charge you that same amount to rebuild your water pump when you find out that it is also shot :lol:

But they do great work- I just picked my water pump up from them last Friday, and it looks awesome.
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Postby antiquecyles » Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:05 pm

moore_rb wrote:
antiquecyles wrote:I just called Whitepost in VA. They charge $ :think: 220 to re-sleeve, rebuild and make like new. :



Kellogg Automotive in Az is going to charge you that same amount to rebuild your water pump when you find out that it is also shot :lol:

But they do great work- I just picked my water pump up from them last Friday, and it looks awesome.


Doooooh! :lol:
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Postby antiquecyles » Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:30 pm

moore_rb wrote:
antiquecyles wrote:I just called Whitepost in VA. They charge $ :think: 220 to re-sleeve, rebuild and make like new. :



Kellogg Automotive in Az is going to charge you that same amount to rebuild your water pump when you find out that it is also shot :lol:

But they do great work- I just picked my water pump up from them last Friday, and it looks awesome.



Hi Robert,

Thank you for the detailed solution for brake options. I am leaning towards ordering the Wilwood dual master and routing separate lines for front and rear. If both reservoirs displace equal pressure how (do you think) would it affect stopping; The front having 4 cylinders, rear having only 2?
Maybe the solution is to use the Wilwood BMC and use the stock line to all wheels but add a p-valve?

Kris
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Postby Esteban » Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:49 pm

Run separate lines to the front and rear. The brake lines are standard and easy to get, or you can do the flaring yourself.

This is the setup that I have:

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The proportioning valve that I installed is adjustable, so you can tweak after some trials. And I decided to install it, since the other Patrol that I totaled, blocked the rear wheels on a very wet pavement road, and became history...

In theory, you won't need the proportioning valve using the Wilwood, since you are exerting the same pressure to the lines as before.
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Postby RiverPatrol » Wed Nov 13, 2013 4:15 pm

moore_rb wrote:The Wilwood unit does balanced 50/50 internal proportioning between the front and rear reservoirs, and each reservoir sources its own outlet; so the decision of whether or not to add a proportioning valve is a judgement-call. You can make the Willwood piece work with a P-valve, or without one.

The stock brake layout on the 60 Patrol did not include a P-valve. All the brake line pressure comes from a single master cylinder reservoir, through a single outlet, and is then split between front and rear by a passive (non proportioning) T-fitting. Proportioning duty is handled by the fact that there are twice as many wheel cylinders up front as in the rear; so the net pressure applied to each cylinder is less up front, allowing the rear wheels to lock up first if you stand hard on the brake pedal.

Now, back to that Wilwood master cylinder - It has two reservoirs, so there are a number of ways you could successfully plumb it in. I have broken some of these methods down according to some specific scenarios:

Scenario One would allow you to install the Wilwood master directly to the patrol's single stock master cylinder outlet brake line - you would need to Tee the two outlets from the Wilwood part together, and then hook the single Patrol outlet line in into the T fitting:

outlet 1 outlet 2
|_____Tee_____|
|
original patrol brake line


This is the "quickest, easiest" way to restore your Patrol's operational brakes with the Wilwood piece, but it is in no way ideal, because you would be Tee-ing 2 outlets into one line, and then the stock Tee would just split the 1 line back into 2 to route the fluid to the axles... Also, this method preserves one very basic, inherent shortcoming in the 60 Patrol's original brake circuit design - if you lose pressure ANYWHERE in the system, then it affects the braking performance at ALL FOUR corners.

So, One better way to hook up the Willwood master would be to take advantage of the dual reservoirs, and eliminate the factory Tee (the one on the frame directly below the master cylinder), and run the outlet from the rear reservoir to the stock Tee on the rear axle, and to run the front outlet to the stock Tee on the front axle. The advantage of this method is that now each axle has its own dedicated pressure circuit, so if one reservoir (or wheel cylinder) starts leaking, it will not disable the brakes on BOTH axles - obviously, this is MUCH better from a safety perspective. This method also still preserves the same stock front to rear brake proportioning bias inherent to the original Nissan design.

Regarding the topic of using a Proportioning valve, versus not using one- The decision whether to use a P-valve or not is really only relevant if you want the modify your Patrol's default front to rear brake bias; maybe due to a power brake or disk brake conversion, or due to the installation of larger off-road tires, etc...

But, the reader's digest summary is that if you want to use the Willwood Master cylinder, you do not NEED to add a P-valve. You only need to decide whether you want to install a 2nd Tee (not recommended) or eliminate the existing tee and plumb it front to front, and rear to rear (highly recommended)

If I have time before dark when I get home today, I'll test the master cylinder in the Deathtrap Patrol. If it turns out to be shot, then I will probably order the Wilwood cylinder and plumb it in using the "front to front, rear to rear" method I outlined above, and I will be sure to post a step by step how-to...


Awesome! This is exactly what I was hoping for. I agree that option 2 sounds like the best way to go. If you're going to put a dual master on you might as well utilize the technology. Thanks for stepping up for this effort! You're a very worthy candidate. :D 8-)
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Postby RiverPatrol » Wed Nov 13, 2013 4:17 pm

antiquecyles wrote:I appreciate everyone's help on my issue. I apologize for stirring the pot but it would appear it was just a matter of time.

Thanks,
Kris


Hey Kris, no problem. That's just how we roll here. :laughing-rollingyellow: It needed to be done for everyone in the community anyway.
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Postby bosque » Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:54 pm

antiquecyles wrote:I just called Whitepost in VA. They charge $ :think: 220 to re-sleeve, rebuild and make like new. Wheel cylinders are 80 each. Kinda pricey but it comes with a lifetime warranty which is nice... :think:


Did you try this dude in CA? He was way more doable than WhitePost.
http://www.brakecylinder.com/sleeve1.htm
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Postby antiquecyles » Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:15 pm

After searching, talking, typing, calling and praying...
Are you kidding me? I find it at Napa? The rebuild kit with piston is $22 bucks! I have to drive 15 miles to the nearest location that actually has it but a small price to pay! Wow. Im gonna bring the old one to match up but it "looks" exact.

Thanks to a compatible parts list-Jim Morrow (THANKS!)

Part # is UP 387. It says it fits 61-66 Ford E-100 1/2 ton vans and wagons. Maybe they just forgot to include the Patrol :)

yahooooo!
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Postby RiverPatrol » Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:02 pm

bosque wrote:Did you try this dude in CA? He was way more doable than WhitePost.
http://www.brakecylinder.com/sleeve1.htm


The web site says they are no longer doing business. :|
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